2017年5月16日 星期二

Richard Gombrich 北京訪問紀錄:理察 貢布理奇---佛教學者 (4)



本文引自:Page Tan
(https://www.facebook.com/page.tan/posts/1330657137015738)
他是牛津教授,享譽世界的佛學家,卻說:「我不在乎自己是不是“佛教徒”」。
發佈時間:05-01 10:53
來源: 智慧寺院網
理察貢布理奇:西方最負盛名的梵文、巴利文學者,也是公認的最有影響力的南傳佛教研究專家之一
Richard Gombrich, is known as the most prestigious Pali scholar in the West, an eminent Sanskritist,and one of the most influential experts in the study of Southern Buddhism.
我從未想過,會用英文進行一場關於佛學的採訪;更從未想過,在世界的另一端會有一位鮮少踏上亞洲的土地, 卻對佛教的理解比許多自詡為佛教徒的人還要深刻的學者。
I never thought that I would conduct an English interview on Buddhism; I also never thought that, at the other end of the world, there is a scholar who rarely sets foot on the land of Asia, but possesses a much more profound understanding on Buddhism than many self-proclaimed Buddhists.
第一次知道在牛津大學任教四十餘年的,理察貢布理奇教授,是在北京大學舉辦的“公共智慧與社會發展”陽光論壇上(主辦方:北京正心慈善基金會)。
I first met Professor Richard Gombrich, who had been teaching in the University of Oxford for more than forty years,at the "public Wisdom and Social Development" forum held at Peking University.
那次,已78歲高齡的他,不遠萬里,從倫敦飛到北京。
He was 78 years old at that time but still traveled to China from London regardless of the hardness of the long trip and jetlag.
我一直難以忘懷一個細節:
I would never forget such a detail:
演講前,他從座位上站起, 向與會大眾鞠躬敬禮,身體力行恭敬一切眾生。
Before the speech, he stood up from his seat, bowed to the general public to demostrate his respect for everyone.
“我將自己絕大部分的生命都奉獻給了佛學研究。這是我第一次來北大分享我的佛學觀,是我一生中最榮幸的時刻,也是在我餘下的生命中,難以忘懷的一刻。”
"I have been dedicating most of my life to Buddhist studies. This is my first chance to share my personal understanding of Buddhism at Peking University. This is the most honored moment in my life and would be the unforgettable moment in my remaining life."
他以精湛的佛學見地,純澈的赤子之心,感動了在場觀眾。
His profounded thoughts on Buddhism, and his pure human kindness deeply touched the audience.
他1937年出生於倫敦,母親來自中歐的著名音樂世家。
He was born in London in 1937, into a musical family from Central Europe.
他與佛教的淵源可以追朔到上世紀五十年代。
His involvement with Buddhism could be traced back to the fifties of the last century.
那時他還是一個血氣方剛的小夥子,經常到父親的一個朋友家做客。那家的女主人,是德國人,佛教徒, 兩個孩子在她的薰陶下,也信仰了佛教。 這是年輕的他遇到佛教徒、參加他們討論的第一次經驗。
At that time he was doing compulsory British military service in Germany, and often visited one of his father's friends, whose wife had converted to Buddhism and was bringing up her two children as Buddhists as well. That's the earliest experience for young Richard Gombrich to meet Buddhists and attend some of their meetings.
他的父親是歷史學家,喜歡中國文化, 有時, 他會翻翻父親那些講著神秘東方智慧的書, 其中有一本叫 Teachings of the Compassionate Buddha.(慈悲佛陀的教導),令他看後印象深刻。
His father was a historian, liked Chinese culture, and sometimes he would read his father's books about oriental wisdom, one of which, called Teachings of the Compassionate Buddha, much impressed him.
從那以後,他與佛教結下了不解之緣。 到2004年退休時,他已在牛津大學執教40餘年,畢生精力奉獻給了佛教與巴利文研究。 (巴利文,佛教上部座經典的語言)
Since then, he has forged a bond with Buddhism. When he retired in 2004, he had been teaching at Oxford for more than 40 years and Professor of Sanskrit for 28 years.
He devoted his life to Buddhism and Pali. (Pali, the language of Theravada Buddhist scripture);
與貢布理奇教授的採訪,是我所經歷的,非常特殊的一次。 他鮮少提及個人經歷, “佛陀的見地, 比我個人有趣1000倍!“
The interview with Professor Gombrich is very special one that I have ever experienced. He rarely mentioned his personal experience,"Buddha's insights are 1000 times more interesting than mine!"
而他的見地,無處不讓我想到網上流傳的一首詩——當我說我是佛教徒時。
His expression reminded me of a poem widely spreaded online - When I Said That I Was A Buddhist.
正因此,這篇文, 我嘗試用一種不同的形式來敘述, 用他的話, 對比那首詩(有改動),來映照我們的自心。
For this reason, I have tried to narrate his words in a different way in contrast with that poem, to reflect our true heart.
01
3月18日,悉尼-倫敦
越洋電話裡, 我問出了盤旋在心中已久的問題:
“我看到的一份採訪中說,您並非佛教徒, 那是什麼力量使得您將生命大半部分光陰都貢獻給了佛教研究呢?”
18th of March, Sydney- London
Over the international call, I asked the question which is always on my mind.
“from an article about you, I know you are not a Buddhist, so what made you dedicate so much time to Buddhism research?”
他和藹地笑了:“我不認為我是佛教徒,也不認為我不是, 事實上,我們也不必給所有人都貼上ID(身份標籤), 一個人,是不是形式上的佛教徒不重要, 重要的是, 他是不是真的理解了佛陀那無比燦爛的、充滿著力量、滿載著慈悲的智慧。”
He smiled gently: “I don’t think I’m a Buddhist, but actually, we don’t need to label everyone with an ID. It is not important whether a person looks like a Buddhist. The most important thing is whether or not he/she can truly understand the Buddha’s enormous brilliant wisdom which is full of strength, kindness and compassion.
他的回答讓我很慚愧, 當我還在在意宗教信仰的標籤時, 一個幾乎把畢生精力奉獻給佛學研究的人,卻希望人們關注的是佛陀的智慧。
His answer made me ashamed. When I still care for the label of religious belief, a person who dedicates almost his life to Buddhist research, only hopes that people care for the Buddha’s wisdom.
Notes:
當我說我是佛教徒時
不是說我比別人更純潔善良
而是我有太多無明煩惱需要去除
我需要佛陀的智慧
When I say I’m aBuddhist.
It doesn’t mean I’m purer and nicer than others.
But means I have too much ignorance and worries to remove
I need Buddhas' wisdom
02
“佛陀的見地,給您的人生帶來了什麼樣的啟發?”
What kind of enlightenment does Buddha’s insight bring to your life?
“我更願意用‘學到’這個詞,我從佛陀的見地中學到了什麼?
I don’t use the word enlightenment. I would rather use the word as“Learn from Buddha”, What I have learnt from Buddha?
一個世界聞名的學者,卻在字斟句酌間,讓人無處不感受到他的謙卑與嚴謹。
A world-famous scholar made me feel his humility in his every carefully chosen word and sentence.
Notes:
當我說我是佛教徒時
不是說我比別人更具足智慧
而是我被太多的傲慢包裹
我需要用謙卑來體味更浩瀚的世界
When I say I’m a Buddhist,
It doesn’t mean Ihave more wisdom than others.
But means I have been occupied by more arrogance
I need be more humble to have a wider horizon
03
“我人生很多重要的東西,都是從佛陀那裡學來的:
他告訴我,眾生平等, 告訴我,地位不同,性別各異的人們, 內心深處, 都有一般無二的智慧與能力;"
“I have learned so many important things from Buddha: He told me that everyone in the world is equal. Though different in gender and rank, in the depth of ourhearts, we are all the same in wisdom and capability.”
Notes:
當我說我是佛教徒
並不是因為我比別人好或壞
而是我瞭解到眾生的平等無二
When I say I’m aBuddhist,
not because I ambetter or worse than others,
but because I understand everyone is equal ,no one inferior.
04
他告訴我, 當別人用暴力,或者不友善的方式對待你,保持內心的慈悲平和,以智慧應對,永遠比在瞋恨中反擊更有效;
“He tells me when others treat you in a violent or unfriendly way, try to retain peace in mind, show your compassion and respond with wisdom, which always turns out to be more effective than enmity and hatred;”
Notes:
當我說我是佛教徒
因為我只能愛自己所愛的人
而佛陀卻能愛自己所恨的人,
並使他們具足智慧與慈悲
所以我選擇學佛!
When I say I’m aBuddhist,
For I only love those to my taste,
But Buddha loves even people he hates
turning them into ones full of wisdom and compassion
That’s why I choose to follow Buddha’s teaching!
05
他還告訴我,財富不能使你快樂、地位不能使你快樂。 就像我父親所說:“金錢,是這世上最乏味的話題。”擺脫了追逐名利的欲望, 我們的心將無限趨近於自在與智慧。“
“He also teaches me
Wealth does not make you happy,
Neither does power.
Like my father once said to me,
“Money is the most boring topic in theworld”
Lift the heart of the desire to pursue fame and fortune,
We may come closer to our inner peace and inherent wisdom.”
Notes:
當我說我是佛教徒
不是為了從此求財得財
而是為了了斷自己對一切欲望的執著
When I say I’m a Buddhist
Not with the goal of getting what’s in my interest.
But for terminating my personal clinging to all worldly desires.
06
佛陀還讓我懂得了一切只是因緣和合,比如今天我們的通話,要有電話被發明的因,要有你能講英語的因,才能叫因緣具足而一切和合而成的事物;是一定會因因緣的改變而變化,這就是“無常“,所謂緣起性空。這也讓我們對一切,不必執著。“
Buddha helps me understand everything exists as a result of the union of causes and conditions. Take our talk for example, someone inventing the phone and you speaking English are the basic conditions for it to happen. So, we can say we have sufficient conditions to make this talk possible. And everything is bound to come into existence when the union of causes and conditions happens. This is ever-changing nature of things, the so-called coming from nothing and leading to nothing. Just because of this essential nature of the world, we won’t hold on stubbornly to anything in the world.
Notes:
當我說我是佛教徒
不是為了人生一帆風順
而是為了坦然接受無常
在任何殘酷的境遇下
從容如君王
When I say I am a Buddhist
Not because I pursue a smoothy life
But for the calm acceptance of impermanence
In any cruel circumstance
Be relaxed and confident like a king.
07
另外,還有非常重要的一點。 佛教中“評判“一件事情的善與惡,重點看作事人的發心。然而,光有發心是遠遠不夠的。我們真的需要學會觀察因緣,理解他人,才能生發出解決事情的智慧。
Besides, there is another key point. To determine whether a matter is good or evil, one should attach values to the motivation. However, motivation itself is not enough . It is imperative for us to learn to observe the context, meaning causes and conditions, to make an effort to understand others so that we can attain the wisdom to solve the problem.
Notes:
當我說我是佛教徒時
不是說以愛的發心
綁架他人
而是為了用周到的智慧
在隨順眾生中自利利他
When I say I am a Buddhist
I do not mean to restrain others
With the motivation of love
Rather it is the good use of wisdom
To benefit oneself and others while being sympathetic to all sentient beings.
08
“有人說,佛教是快樂的藝術,您怎麼看?“
“Someone said, Buddhism is the art of happiness. What is your opinion?”
“我不太認同這種說法。 佛教,不是讓我們把人生當作一場快樂的 party, 然後酩酊大醉直到第二天酒醒。
“I don’t agree with the statement. Buddhism doesn’t meant to make life into a happy party to hang over and wake up the next morning…
快樂總是與某種目標相連的,通常, 當我們收入達到了某個水準, 當我們的子女都健康無憂, 我們才具備快樂的條件。
Happiness is associated with an aspiration.Normally, the conditions associated with being happy are that of a certain income level or when our children are healthy and carefree.
而這種快樂是會隨著因緣的變化的,本質上,它是虛幻而脆弱的。
But this kind of happiness is transient and changes with circumstances.
人生的本質是充滿痛苦的,我們不得不面對,包括自己在內的所有親愛的人的死亡。
In nature, it is illusory and fragile. The nature of life is full of bitterness.We have to face death – be it of all ourloved ones and our self.
而佛教的意義,不是把我們指向俗世的快樂,也不是告訴我們一切都不存在, 它為我們指出的是‘空’與‘有’間的中道, 帶著不執著一切事物表相的心,走在這條道上,就能得到使我們獲得自在的智慧。“
But the significance of Buddhism is not in directing us toward secular happiness. Neither is it in telling us that all are transient and have no inherent existence.
It points us to the Way between “emptiness”and “existence,” the middle way, detached from all appearances. It is in Walking this Path that we attain the wisdom for freedom.
Notes:
當我說我是佛教徒時
並不是因為我要逃避人世、追求虛無
而是深知日常生活處處是道場
活在當下就是在修行
When I say I am a Buddhist
Not because I want to escape from the world and pursue the nothingness
knowing everyday life is within Dharma field
To live in the present is to practice
當我說我是佛教徒時
我的生命並非從此不再遭遇挫折
但是有了佛法相伴
挫折一一轉化成助我成長的因緣
When I say I am Buddhist
It does not mean that mylife will no longer experience setbacks
But with the Dharma
Setbacks are transformed into a cause for my growth
當我說我是佛教徒時
我心中充滿無盡的感恩
單單想到今生有緣生而為人、具備修行的能力
又有機會遇善知識、得以聽聞佛法
就深心感動因緣不可思議
When I say I am a Buddhism
My heart is filled with endless gratitude
Just thinking I was born as a human and has the practice ability this life Also the opportunity to meet good and wise advisors, therefore hearing the Budda's ideas
This unbelievable karma deeply moved me
當我說我是佛教徒
並不是因為外在有一個神
而是我發現了我本具的自心本性
When I say I am a Buddhism
Not because there is a God
But I found the nature of my own heart.
短短半個小時的採訪,讓我明澈映照了自心的虛偽。
Just half an hour of interviews clearly reflected the hypocrisy part of my heart.
而八十高齡的他,幾乎把全部薪水、全部精力都投入到了他發起的牛津佛學研究中心, 那種春蠶到死絲方盡的赤子情懷,令我感動。
As an eighty-year-old professor and Buddhist, he devotes almost all of his retirement salaries and energy into the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies he launched. His pure spirit, just as silkworm’s keeping work to death while last silk ended, deeply touched me.
他的父親約瑟夫貢布理奇是著名的歷史學家,其著作被翻譯成中文,迄今仍是許多大學的教材。
Professor's father Sir Ernst Hans Josef Gombrich, was a very famous historian. His books,translated into Chinese, are textbooks in many major China universities today.
而他成立的牛津佛學中心的網站(www.ocbs.org),為全世界佛學研究者提供了豐富的學術資源,他還為中國學生專門設計了巴利文課程與教材。
Professor Gombrich founded Oxford Center for Buddhist Studies, which is a Recognized Independent Centre of Oxford University ("OCBS"). Since then,professor contributed his time and his earnings for this center, without any compensations. OCBS's website: www. ocbs.org is a rich resource for worldwide Buddhistscholars. Professor Gombrich has also designed a Pali course for Chinese students and wrote a text book "Pali Course Book" for Chinesestudents, which is being translated into Chinese.
“我已離死亡很近。“他音聲裡的豁達, 和為傳播佛學文化甘願奉獻餘生所有歲月的慈悲,又令我震撼。
“I’m already close to death“ ,The open-minded sound of his voice and his compassion shocked me again since he promised to contribute his remaining days to spreading Buddhist culture.
他用精闢的佛學見地、赫赫聲明下的謙卑、鞠躬盡瘁的付出,向我們詮釋了一個真正學佛者的情懷。
His incisive Buddhist insight, humility despite his good reputation and dedicated efforts interpreted and illustrated for us his spirit as a true Buddhist.
聲明:本文由令見授權智慧寺院網發佈。

8 則留言:

Ness Chen 提到...

寫得真的很好,希望能借分享

Ken Yifertw 提到...

沒問題。

Ness Chen 提到...

the so-called coming from nothing and leading to nothing

這個翻譯作 緣起性空,小弟覺得有點怪怪的XD

如果是我,我會翻:thing come from condition,but even condition is also conditioned,so there is no fix stability in things

Ness Chen 提到...

師兄好,想請問師兄您是否覺得我的翻譯有所可改善處^^?

Ken Yifertw 提到...

訪問稿是英文,
所以問題不是「中翻英」正確不正確的問題,
而是「英翻中」正確不正確的問題。

Ness Chen 提到...

感謝師兄告知,若英翻中的話,coming from nothing and leading to nothing

這個我個人理解是 從無中升起並歸於無,緣起性空可以理解為其中一個詮釋,只是說英文若用nothing來表達空,我是擔心是否在西方文化中有其理解過度偏空的問題。

Ken Yifertw 提到...

我也認為這句英文的翻譯有過度解釋的嫌疑。也就是說,譯文比原來的英文的意思還多。
不過因為是訪問稿,我也不知道 Richard Gombrich 原意是什麼;也就暫時接受譯文。
如要忠實翻譯,應譯作:「所謂來自虛無而歸於虛無」,就變成外道「虛無主義」了,這也許是譯者所面對的難題,最終不得已所採取的解決方法吧?總不能讓當代巴利學、佛學大師講起話來像外道吧?

Ness Chen 提到...

嗯嗯,謝謝老師的提示,確實在讀者也不知道被採訪者原意時,翻譯者的確要注意翻出來的意思。