第一次與 Jan Nattier 那體慧對談是2011年，在無著比丘的安排下，由我跟 Jan Nattier 那體慧解釋，我為何對她的主張持反對意見：「竺佛念翻譯《增一阿含經》時增添了一些額外的內容」(簡潔一點來說：那體慧主張「竺佛念篡改了《增一阿含經》的內容」，帖主不贊同此一主張。)當時，那體慧對我的意見不置可否。
此次則是那體慧在我的貼文〈《出曜經》研究〉留言，純粹筆談，商議「念待」一詞的詞義。
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2020/11/30
Jan Nattier
Re the two citations from the 增壹阿含經 on p. 125, it seems quite interesting that the four-character sequence 念X喜安 (where X stands for “any character”) seems to occur exclusively in the works of Zhu Fonian. And this handful of occurrences (both in the main text and in the critical apparatus to the Taishō edition) offers some other variants in addition to 持 and 待: 念持喜安: T125, 4.582b6 (持＝歡＜聖＞, n. 11 to the Taishō edition) T125, 4.653b19 (持＝得＜三＞＊, n. 14) and 21; and T656, 16.73a25-26 (持＝待＜宮＞＊, n. 3) and b2 念待喜安: T212, 4.771c28: [no variants] 念恃喜安: T125, 4.629a25 (恃＝得＜明＞＊, 持＜聖＞＊, n. 10) and 27 and two “outliers”: 念猗喜安: T125, 4.569a27 [no variants] 念淨喜安: T385, 12. 1063c13: [no variants] Searches were done in CBETA using the search string 念.喜安 (I do not know how to do a regex search in SAT, does anyone know if this is possible?), but variants were pasted in from the SAT edition.
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Ken Yifertw
2 mins ago
Thanks for offering more examples to a better expounding of 念持. Our friend, Stefano Zacchetti (1968-2020), made a guess about its meaning in a paper pertaining to the new-found 十二門論 ascribed to An Shigao in 金剛寺. He wondered if 念 stands for vitakka, and 持 for vicāra. Since I located 念持 only at T212, it is simply the translation against Uv.28.5, Dhp 205, or its equivalent. The example raised by Stefano would simply be different Indic words translated into the same Chinese phrase. It would be irrelevant to my example.
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2.
Jan Nattier
2 days ago
Dear Ken,
Yes, you’re right of course that the occurrences of 念X喜安 in Zhu Fonian’s corpus (with the numerous variant readings for the second character) don’t necessarily have a direct bearing on the meaning of 念待 in the line 解知念待味 in T212. But they may still have something to offer, first by pointing to the difficulty that scribes in subsequent generations seem to have had with this phrase (given the large number of variants), and second, by offering additional insight into Zhu Fonian’s way of working.
As is by now well known, his corpus includes various types of texts: (1) those that are more or less direct translations of Indian sources (for example, T1 and T1428), (2) those that are translations of Indian texts but include material that he added himself (e.g., T125 and T212), and (3) those that are apocryphal scriptures that he composed without reference to any Indian original, but borrowing material from existing Chinese translations (including T309, T656, T384 and T385). So some instances of the use of this four-character phrase (and of 念待 alone) occur in texts that are not translations at all.
In this regard some participants in this discussion might be interested to know about the forthcoming paper by LIN Qian and Michael Radich, entitled “Zhu Fonian suo 'yi' dashengjing de jisuanji fuzhu wenben fenxi yanjiu 竺佛念所“译”大乘经的计算机辅助文本分析研究,” which is scheduled to appear in the journal Shijie zongjiao wenhua 世界宗教文化 toward the end of this year.)
Yanfei Zhao
2 days ago
Thanks for your sharing, Professor. I will read the article when it is available.
Ken Yifertw
2 days ago
Dear Professor,
Thanks for your comments and extra information.
Within my limited knowledge, it sounds that my article about T212 (published by Michael Ji, Yun Ji, at Singapore Buddhist Journal) is the only article to expound Zhu Fonian's translation and style about verses of T212. This article is: (https://www.academia.edu/17534620/Notes_on_Chu_Yao_Jing_T212_%E5%87%BA%E6%9B%9C%E7%B6%93_%E7%A0%94%E7%A9%B6_2015_in_Chinese_)
I care a lot about Zhu Fonian's translation style of verses, and this very study is inspired by you. I found it flowing like a creek as to his style in translation of verses. For the same verse he translated it differently, and the latter is worse than the previous one. I did a comparative study about veses between T1543 and T1544 in the light of comparative studies among Dharmapadas. As you are aware of this: T1544 was translated by 玄奘 Xuan-Zang. 《阿毘曇八犍度論》卷30：「偈跋渠」(CBETA, T26, no. 1543, p. 914, c19) 《阿毘達磨發智論》卷20：「伽[5]他納息」(CBETA, T26, no. 1544, p. 1029, b18)，[5]他＝陀【明】。
Ken Yifertw
2 days ago
As Zhu Fonian described his own way of translation: 《阿育王息壞目因緣經》卷1：「念(Zhu Fonian)譯晉音情義實難，或離文而就義，或正滯而傍通。或取解於誦人，或事略而曲備，冀將來之學士，令[30]鑒罪福之不朽。設有毫釐潤色者，盡銘之於萌兆。故敘之焉。」(CBETA, T50, no. 2045, p. 172, b15-19)。[30]鑒＝監【宋】【元】【明】【宮】。
At times being different from the verbatim or literal way and paraphrasing it instead (或離文而就義)
At times passages having been adopted from other [texts] to render it properly. (或正滯而傍通)
At times the recitor was questioned for more information (或取解於誦人)
more details were collected to make the brief (description of) event much complete (或事略而曲備)
The previous comment dated in AD 384, Zhu Fo-nian explained for himself in AD 391, while T1 was translated in AD 413. Please feel free to let me know if you want to hear something about this preface for T2045. 《出三藏記集》卷7：「王子法益壞目因緣[17]經序第十九」(CBETA, T55, no. 2145, p. 51, b14) [17]〔經〕－【宋】【元】【明】。
yiren zhang
18 hrs ago
Thank you for your information, Professor! And Thanks to Mr. Su Ken for his thought-provoking article. I will keep an eye on Radich's forthcoming paper.
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3. Jan Nattier
16 mins ago
2020/12/2
Dear Ken, many thanks for these additional references and for the link to your thought-provoking article. Probably most of the members of this discussion are already aware of it, but there is also some further information concerning T212 available on CBC@ (a very useful web site that gives information on the attribution of translated texts, summarized from works published in a variety of languages). While there is no dispute about the attribution of T212 to Zhu Fonian, some of the publications cited there may be useful to others interested in this topic. For the entry on T212 see: https://dazangthings.nz/cbc/text/?q=t0212&start_date=&end_date=&results_per_page=20 (and click on the text number). To search for information on other Taishō texts, you can type "T" followed by four numbers in the search box (if the text number is short, for example T1, use zeroes to fill the remaining spaces, for example T0001).
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https://www.academia.edu/17534620/Notes_on_Chu_Yao_Jing_T212_%E5%87%BA%E6%9B%9C%E7%B6%93_%E7%A0%94%E7%A9%B6_2015_in_Chinese_
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