親愛的老師：
Happy Chinese new year!
I am reading SA 211 at home to enjoy this festival.
The parallel of SA 211 is SN 35.117, where Ven. Bodhi highlighted a variant of Pali sutta:
It said Be version was : "「yattha cakkhuñ ca nirujjhati rūpasaññā ca nirujjhati 眼滅處，色想即滅」" while both Se and Ee versions is "「yattha cakkhuñ ca nirujjhati rūpasaññā ca virajjhati 眼滅處，即離色想」"
Ven. Bodhi concluded that the latter one should be most likely the original reading(SN 35.117(p. 1191) n.103(p. 1414)」
SA 211 supports his conclusion.
《雜阿含211經》卷8：「於彼入處當覺知，若眼滅，色想則離。」(CBETA, T02, no. 99, p. 53, b12-13)
Ven. Bodhi's translation is "Therefore, bhikkhus, that base should be understood, where the eye ceases and perception of forms fades away. "
Its note 102 highlights that 'se āyatane veditabbe', it is implicitly implied that "the base means nibbāna",
I render it this way that SA 211 simply takes āyatane as 於彼入處 which means six sensual bases.
My question is:
1. Both Pali and Chinese versions say 'the eye ceases', what does it mean?
Does it mean 'to pretend oneself blind'? or 'to see without watching'? or 'to see without clinging to attachment such as sensual pleasure, I-identity'? or anything else?
2. Does Pali version render "perception of forms fades away" as "to see without creating perception of forms"? or "to see but ignore perception of forms"? or "to see without clinging to perception of forms" or else?
Please teach me.
Your ignorant student
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:41 AM
請參考 http://yifertw.blogspot.tw/2013/11/72-84.html
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Dear ignorant student :-)
warm greetings to you
actually you are quite wise and this is a deep passage. The point is that the experience of Nibbaana involves and experience of a cessation of the whole world as we usually experience it. It is precisely because of this that one who has experienced Nibbaana no longer has the idea of a substantial and eternal self, because s/he has had an experience when that sense of self has completely disappeared.
The difference between the two readings does not affect the meaning too much, nirodha and viraaga are fairly similar in their usage in the early discourses (cf. Encyclop. article on viraaga, http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/fileadmin/pdf/analayo/Viraga.pdf), and in such a context the sense would be, as trsl by ven bhikkhu Bodhi, "fading away", which is quite close to "ceasing".
The point is that one should have such an experience, aayatana, where one "sees" Nibbaana, which is seen without looking through one's eyes and without having a perception of forms.
with much mettaa
Teacher
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 1:36 PM
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親愛的老師：
Thanks for your expounding about this passage. There are four other issues:
1. The wording is quite clear to me. I can read the meaning of this interpretation while it is something beyond my ability and experience. It takes some development of mine to taste the flavor of 'dhamma' by personal experience instead of the imagination out of words.
2. Your expounding is to render 'āyatane' as 'at the base (base implies "nibbāna")'.
This explanation works fine in pali passage.
But for Chinese passage:
《雜阿含211經》卷8：「於彼入處當覺知，若眼滅，色想則離。」(CBETA, T02, no. 99, p. 53, b12-13)
「於彼入處當覺知」 means 'you would(should) be aware of it at that specific sense base '
where 「入處」 is the 'sense base' which was mentioned a few sentences before.
As I try to highlight that Chinese translation might have rendered 'āyatane' as 'at the sense base' instead of 'at the base (base implies "nibbāna"). Under this circumstance, how to render 「於彼入處當覺知，若眼滅，色想則離」?
Anyhow, we are going to tackle SA 211 sooner or later.
Your ignorant student
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 1:36 PM
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Dear Yifertw
warm greetings
2. I am not really saying that "aayatana" means "at the base". I am saying that aayatana means "experience", and that is precisely also the sense I would see in the Chinese.
with much mettaaTeacher
On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 9:45 PM
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